8

When I asked this question it seemed to cause a bit of a stir which I believe has been simmering for a while. Clearly some folks are of the opinion that some/all Dragonvale "How to I breed dragon X" questions are bad questions on the grounds that they are too easy to answer.

Previously, Fluttershy brought up the topic of how to address the monthly Gem Dragons, and I believe the consensus was with BenBrocka's response to the effect that these questions are valuable, even though they are tied to a limited time event. Gem Dragon questions are a special sub-segment though, because the breeding pairs are non-intuitive, and there is a sense of urgency since the dragons are only available for a limited time.

So, aside from the specific allowance for Limited/Gem dragons, should general Dragonvale breeding questions not be allowed?

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It's been about four months since this was originally asked, and in that time I've gotten a shiny new phone that is actually capable of playing this game. So I got it, and I loaded this game up, and I checked out what all the fuss was about.

This is a complicated game with very little user feedback. It is probably one of the most impenetrable "casual" experiences I've had to date, and I feel lost a lot. If you've never played it, and your assumption is that the game is trivial or easy or simplified for a casual audience, there is nothing further from the truth. It's simplified in that there is virtually no documentation on hardly any feature, and what there is is often either contradictory or useless.

The fallout from this discussion was that we're against questions where the information is ostensibly given in-game. We also believe that the Wikia site is a good source of information. Let's test that theory and see if the community at large can be a good judge of these questions, shall we?

Let's play Identify That Breeding Pair!

Here's a sample of dragons, tell me which ones are trivial or have significant Wikia info. I'll even give you the in-game store's information for each, so you don't feel left out if you can't see it.

  1. Frostfire Dragon - The game says "Cold" and "Fire"
  2. Love Dragon - The game says "Lightning" "Plant" and "Fire"
  3. Gold Olympus Dragon - The game says nothing.

While you're pondering and consulting Wikia, enjoy this picture of Alex Trebek back when he was rocking a monster 'stache:

enter image description here

If you answered anything besides "this is meta, and he has a point to make, so agent86 is giving us a trick question" - you failed. Let's take the "simplest" one and break it down.

Frostfire

The Frostfire Dragon seems easy enough from the store data. Breed Fire + Cold, bam, Frostfire. Only, the game won't let you do that. Turns out there are opposites in the game that can't be bred together, and Fire + Cold is one set of those. The game doesn't mention this, it just grays out one when you select the other. For all intents and purposes, it looks like a bug.

You can breed hybrids that feature both elements together, and knowing this you might assume that any hybrid Fire + hybrid Cold combination would work, given that you're going for Fire + Cold. You'd be wrong, enjoy your hours of wasted time as you wait for these combos to yield things you don't want.

The Wikia is slightly more helpful, in that it tells you you must breed a Fire Hybrid with a Cold Dragon. This narrows the field a bit, but still leaves you with 20 possible combinations. Again, every time you fail, you're looking at hours of waiting until you can try again.

We've exhausted the Wikia's information on the subject, and most other sites are just parroting that data. However, the game has a statistical model behind it, and it's possible to understand it if:

  • You're a gamer who invests significant time in Dragonvale, enough to understand how the model works
  • You've got enough expertise in math and statistics to be able to SCIENCE your way out of the complex potential statistical combinations and their various benefits.

This sounds an awful lot like the kind of expert we are supposed to be cultivating here, doesn't it? The kind of question that yields intelligent answer that SE is in a unique position to provide? That cuts through the "this worked for me" anecdotal answers you find elsewhere? Hmm.

Love Dragon

I won't go into the derivation as deeply as I did for Frostfire, but suffice it to say that only a subset of the dragons that feature the three elements are actually valid. Wikia here tells us that to get the Plant and Fire, you must use a Plant/Fire hybrid, specifically Flower, (even though Poison is also a Plant/Fire hybrid). You might now think "OK, well, then that means that I can just breed Flower + Lightning and that's the only way." Except, no.

In this case, you can breed Plant + Lightning or any Lightning Hybrid. There are 19 possible combinations. This is also a limited time dragon, so there's a maximum amount of times you can try given the long delays you experience on failure. If you're in this situation, you want to know what the statistically "best" pairing is - the one that optimizes the breeding time curve for fewest possible failures AND shortest failures when they do occur. This is a complicated function, but it's solvable if you've got the math background and Dragonvale experience to figure it out.

Wikia doesn't provide this information, and googling it turns up a bunch of unsourced info on sites that seem more concerned with ad revenue than informative content, and shudder Yahoo Answers is in the top results.

Gold Olympus

The gold olympus seems like the worst of the bunch, and there you'd be correct. Not only do you need to know the pairing, you've also got the problem that the pairings can produce "junk" dragons (like the other two, not the one you're looking for) as well as "lesser" Olympus dragons. Your chances are so slim at getting one that it is easy to lose hope, or break down and just pay Backflip so that you can own one.

Again, the Wikia helps, a little. It narrows the field to just the "possible valid" combinations. But, knowing the optimal solution to the breeding problem can save days or weeks of breeding time.


Conclusion

Advancement in this game is a complex problem tuned to get you to spend money - and lots of money. Some of these dragons cost $80 or more if you don't know how to breed them. However, you can make progress in the game without spending money if you are patient, and you can get a leg up by having an expert in your corner who knows how to game the system.

What we've done here is reject that expert, call his motivations into doubt, and harm his image of the site.

Meanwhile, we created a hostile environment for question askers who must be able to prove that their question is sufficiently non-trivial to avoid downvotes and votes to close. We did this even though most of us don't play this game and can't judge these questions.

In a community that is supposed to be open to newcomers and provide expert advice, shouldn't we embrace the easy questions? Shouldn't we embrace the ones that require a bit more work to communicate with new users and edit to bring up to our high standards? Aren't we introducing these people to new concepts and encouraging them to participate, teaching them that gamers are a welcoming crowd and always ready to help, and this is the premiere site to get that help?

Meanwhile, shouldn't we encourage our experts? Let the reward systems designed by SE and in place on the site encourage them to continue contributing?

In my opinion, making decisions like this makes us look elitist, gives us chances to look down on people without completely understanding their problems, and causes arguments and strife where it shouldn't. To me, this is a capital-B Bad Thing.

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    +1. Let's not be elitist jerks who don't even know what we're talking about. – Sterno Feb 25 '13 at 19:15
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Alright, so, I figure since I'm the one who sparked this debate (I think), I should probably chime in with my two cents.

First off, this was in no way an attack on EBongo, nor did I downvote the question solely based on the one asking. I genuinely feel it's a bad question, and here's why:

enter image description here

For anyone unfamiliar with the game, this screen is what you see when you enter the in-game market, select "Eggs", and then select the dragon that you're wondering about. It's really not hard to get to this page, at all. Anyone who plays the game is going to be able to get there (even the ones who have posted complete crap answers on our DragonVale questions).

The circle on the left, the one circling the little brown and red flags? That shows you what two elements are needed to breed that dragon (in this case, Earth and Fire [it even says "Earth, Fire" in the top right!]).

The circle on the right shows the incubation time. Right there, plain as day. "Incubation Time: 8 hours" (Yes, that's an s behind my poorly drawn freehand circle)

This question shows little (zero) prior research, and, honestly, isn't actually about a problem.

The argument about the best combination is really null and void, given the edit history of the question. Sure, that's what's being asked now. At the time of the downvote, however, and my comment, that was not the case.

Does that make it a better question? Absolutely not. Honestly, in this particular case, it seems to me the "best" option is a Fire dragon with an Earth dragon. That's all. Fire, and earth. And that is usually the case with any dual-element dragons. Why? Because that severely limits the possible outcome. In this case, Lava, Bone (for the time being), and Obsidian. That's it.

Does this mean all DragonVale questions are bad? No. It doesn't. Take this one for example. There are quite a few dragons in the game that don't have that sort of information readily available to anyone who plays the game.

enter image description here

These dragons require, in most cases, a particular breed of dragon to breed with another particular breed. As in, there is only one specific pair that has a chance to offer the result for which you are aiming. Those questions are perfectly fine, in my opinion. If for no other reason than the fact that, in the majority of the monthly gem dragons I've looked for, the information was found on a 3rd party site far quicker than it was found on the DragonVale Wikia.

tl;dr: Allow DragonVale questions, unless there is just no need for a question in the first place. i.e.: when the information is right there, plain as day, easily obtainable.

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    This sheds some new light on this particular question, and I'm glad that there wasn't an issue of the person involved. Sorry if I stuck you into the middle here - there were several comments that didn't feel constructive across a couple of questions, so I apologize if you felt singled out. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 22:57
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    @Fluttershy I realize I edited the comment after some downvotes, and folks are welcome to change their votes if they like it better (or change their vote if they like it less). To your comment "Honestly, in this particular case, it seems to me the "best" option is a Fire dragon with an Earth dragon. That's all. Fire, and earth." That is definitely not true, and it is the whole reason I personally ask these questions. In this case Earth+Flower would be better, averaging 7.88 hrs where Earth+Fire averages 8 hrs. Considering it may take you ~ 7 attempts, I believe time difference is relevant. – EBongo Oct 27 '12 at 3:05
  • Since it was probably not obvious that I was looking for this type of answer, I figure I'll go back to the old questions of this type and do the math and answer them myself. Possibly you'll see that as more valuable. – EBongo Oct 27 '12 at 3:07
  • @EBongo Your definition of "better" and "best" in these cases is subjective. You may think one pair is better because of the lower average breeding time, while someone else may think another pair is better due to the fewer number of possible outcomes. Which would mean, even with the math and self-answering, questions like this would still be, in my opinion, bad. – Niro Oct 27 '12 at 3:16
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    @Fluttershy My definition of "better" and "best" is subjective admittedly, but I don't think that makes these questions unique on the site. If someone wanted to present a different version of "best" on a different basis, such as possible outcomes, I'd welcome it - and may the best answer win. – EBongo Oct 27 '12 at 3:21
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    @EBongo While there's no doubt that are a number of questions on the site that aren't ideal, the utility of voting breaks down on questions that don't specify their parameters in a clear and unambiguous manner, because you wind up comparing apples to oranges. It's okay if you think "best" means one thing, and I think "best" means another, but you should avoid the problem entirely by defining what "best" means to you directly in the question. Instead of "What's the best way to breed two dragons?" go with "What's the (fastest|cheapest|etc.) way to breed two dragons?" – user3389 Oct 27 '12 at 4:08
  • @MarkTrapp That is a good point. I'll modify at least the questions I am an author of, with that information. – EBongo Oct 27 '12 at 13:40
  • While I found this answer enlightening and I want to upvote it for that, I find myself disagreeing with your bottom line. I don't see why we need to treat Dragonvale differently from any other game and I don't want to start closing questions for being too easy. – badp Oct 28 '12 at 16:51
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    The key takeaway here is that this is a question which reflects poor research effort. It is not 'Not a Real Question', 'Not Constructive', 'Off Topic', 'Too Localized', or an 'Exact Duplicate'. It is not a question for which closure is a prescribed remedy. However, the StackExchange engine does have a prescribed remedy for questions which are trivial and show poor research effort: the humble downvote. Use it wisely, use it well, and use it often. – LessPop_MoreFizz Oct 28 '12 at 22:13
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    @LessPop_MoreFizz: <marketing voice>Available now for FREE!<fine print voice>Offer not valid on answers. Offer may change without notice. Voting limits may apply.</voice> – MBraedley Oct 29 '12 at 12:02
  • I strongly disagree with the plain visibility of the incubation time. At the end of a long paragraph, which has a small line height? I'd say 30-40% miss chance. – DrFish Nov 7 '12 at 16:27
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There's a few things that haven't been said that I think we should consider.

There appears to be some amount of voting on the poster instead of voting on the post.

This comment in particular makes me think that the reason for at least some of these downvotes is that people feel like this is some sort of blatant "badge grab" question. (See another similar comment here)

If I look at a cross section of similar Dragonvale dragon breeding questions, I don't see this pattern of downvoting and accusatory comments. If people feel like these are bad, poorly researched questions, then I would expect to have seen downvotes on far more of them. (Of course now, I'm opening the floodgates for people to go downvote ALL THE THINGS on that tag :P)

The rewards for asking these questions appear to be minimal - the rep is abysmal, and the badges count for very little. Of the more than 7,000 rep this user in particular has, a whopping 330 (4.5%) has come from asking dragonvale questions.

Can we stop assuming they are asked in bad faith?

I think the argument that these questions are super trivial and add nothing to the internet doesn't really hold water.

The answer on that question - even the initial version of it - is actually better and more complete than the results from a google search. It contains more directed information in a single click than the Dragonvale wikia does, and the other two sites that were ranked above it in Google searches contained little information and seemed more geared towards getting ad impressions than anything else. Collating and organizing information that is potentially available elsewhere, and sorting bad information out is the point of the SE model, right?

Otherwise, we've got a hell of a lot of Skyrim questions to downvote, since the UESP contains most of the information needed to answer almost every question on that subject. I picked Skyrim out of the air, but there's a whole lot of questions across Stack Exchange that could be answered by the official documentation, or a Wiki on another site, etc.

If a question can be answered "properly," but is attracting bad answers from people who don't understand the Stack Exchange model, the answer is to protect it, not close it or ban that class of questions.

Any question can do this, and popular questions about casual games are more likely than most to get this sort of bad answer spam. However, we handle a ton of bad/non answers in a given day, and from experience I don't feel like the tag produces significantly more. If anything, they quickly get to the "3 deleted answer auto-protect" and then they can be safely ignored. I used to preemptively protect them, but I would like it if occasionally they attracted a good first-time answerer to the site.

This also feels like a different beast than content seeding.

This is an actual problem that people are facing, and this person in particular is also facing. Content seeding is more along the lines of anticipating problems and posting questions that we think might be a problem in the future.

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    Can we stop assuming people vote in bad faith, too? Can we start taking people's arguments at face value instead of trying to delegitimize them by baselessly assuming they're trying to punish the asker? It's crap content, a lot of people agree with that assessment. Let's talk about that, and what we can do to make these questions better, instead of trying to armchair psycho-analyze why people vote. – user3389 Oct 26 '12 at 15:35
  • @MarkTrapp, I saw a pattern of comments and downvotes and came up with a hypothesis :) Feel free to disprove it or disagree, if you like. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 15:37
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    I don't have to disprove anything: the burden of proof is on you, the one who made the baseless claim. It's like me saying "Based on a pattern of posts, I think you're a terrible moderator. Feel free to disprove it, if you like :)" and expecting people to buy it. But we don't solve content disputes by starting off accusing others of acting irrationally, especially without any evidence besides one user's comment and a hunch. – user3389 Oct 26 '12 at 15:44
  • @MarkTrapp there are 2 comments that I would classify as "not constructive" on that particular question, and one on another. Further, of a cross-section of dragonvale breeding questions, I only found downvotes on two, both asked by the same person. This concerns me. If it's not something you're participating in, great! I'm glad it's not a problem for you. Perhaps it's not a problem at all! That would be great. I still am concerned though, and I figured I'd bring this pattern to the attention of the community. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 15:55
  • It isn't a problem, and you've provided no evidence to demonstrate otherwise. Voting is anonymous. You have no evidence, none whatsoever, that people are trying to punish Ebongo for asking the question. It's a distraction: why talk about the merits of the question, or questions like it, when we can just write it off as "oh people are just being jerks, their votes don't count." The same argument, using the same amount of evidence, could be used to support any of the myriad questions that get downvoted and closed every day. But dismissing people who disagree as being spiteful isn't how it works. – user3389 Oct 26 '12 at 16:02
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    @MarkTrapp when I see two things side by side - two almost identical questions, and one is downvoted with comments like "You're just doing this for the badge" and the other isn't downvoted or commented on, that bothers me. I get that it doesn't bother you, and/or that you don't think that's enough evidence, and I'm okay with your disagreement. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 16:08
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    It bothers me that you think it's okay to dismiss anyone who disagrees with your personal assessment of the merits of a question as trying to punish a question asker, even though multiple people, here and on other questions on related topics, have voiced clearly and cogently why they don't think these questions are valuable. You derail the entire conversation by claiming something that's neither knowable nor provable nor disprovable, and you do this repeatedly on questions like this. Why bother discussing anything you don't agree with when you can just chalk up any disagreement to spite? – user3389 Oct 26 '12 at 16:17
  • @MarkTrapp, I am here, discussing my disagreement. My observations about comments and voting patterns are only the first part of why I don't consider these to be terrible questions. Ben voiced his opinion on the other meta question about how these weren't terrible questions either. Still, we continue to debate. After a while, I tend to get to where I believe the differences are irreconcilable, and I don't feel like further debate would lead to a conclusion. At that point, I tend to accept disagreement. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 16:22
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    @agent You seem to be assuming that any two breeding questions are equal. It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference with this one, specifically that the answer is very obviously available in game. That seems to warrant downvotes where other breeding questions don't (because the answer is not available in game). – bwarner Oct 26 '12 at 18:43
  • @bwarner, I don't know enough about the game to sort the dragons into "easy to determine the requirements" and "hard to determine the requirements" - I can try to theorize based on the views, though - if this was obvious from in-game hints, I don't think we'd have 2,000 hits in a day from people looking for the answer to this question. There also seems to be some statistics that determine the "best" way to breed a given dragon, which is provided in our answer, but I assume is not given by the game proper. – agent86 Oct 26 '12 at 19:00
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    To be entirely fair, if I knew anything about Dragonvale and saw that question, I'd make the exact same comment. It very blatantly seems like a "ask a super-simplistic question that will get loads of views" sort of thing to me, especially after Fluttershy showed how obvious it is. – Rilgon Arcsinh Oct 27 '12 at 0:31
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    @agent86 Except I can still thing "christ, what a stupid badge-grabbing question" and still vote it up because it has merit aside from that fact. The two are not mutually exclusive. – Rilgon Arcsinh Oct 27 '12 at 0:36
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    @agent86 Not sure this is voting poster necessarily - I may think 'this is for rep whoring' regardless of who posted it, though I'll be more lenient if it is someone who has < 50 rep (since they do need to grab rep imho). The comment itself may be 'mean', but useful for those who don't know the game in question before they give lemming upvotes. – Alok Oct 27 '12 at 2:04
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    @Alok, if the intent is to prevent rep-whoring, then it's kind of failing - the question's at +6/-5, which is more rep than I think has been gained by most dragonvale questions to-date. (Also in my answer I broke down the rep gains from dragonvale questions and demonstrated the futility of rep-whoring them...) I said this already, but looking at a good or bad post and deciding what to do based on the rep of whoever posted it is a bad idea and typically frowned upon. – agent86 Oct 27 '12 at 13:14
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    I just think all these questions can be rolled up into 1. I don't even have an issue if he asks a question about a specific dragon and gets closed as duplicate pointing to that one question. The badge'll still be given that way, but its cleaner that way imo. The way they stand now leads too much into what badp discussed, since they encourage bad one liners. – l I Oct 29 '12 at 15:44
1

While I agree with the spirit behind the monthly breeding questions (they're localized but good localized as they're relevant here and now):

  1. These questions consistently attract bad one-liner answers ("AMAGAD I USED BALLS AND STEEL AND IT WORKED")
  2. These questions can be fairly seen as excessive content seeding (slow-motion seeding, but seeding still!), which we've determined from the earliest days to be something we do not want.

In other words, we don't want people to take a question, change one word and make a new question out of it. This is the heart of what's wrong with the Dragonvale monthly breeding questions.

I don't play the game, so I have to ask you: do you really have trouble figuring out the crafting recipe of each and every month's dragon? Does the answer, or more importantly, how you reach that answer different with each passing month?

Can't we just have one question about how to breed this month's breeding and close everything else as a duplicate of this one question?

If we can, we should.

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  • If you don't want to hurt SEO or views or anything, you can simply change that one question's title to feature the name of the dragon breed recipe du jour. SEO or views or anything however are a secondary concern for us. – badp Oct 26 '12 at 7:43
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    The gemstone dragons are tricky to figure out, as are some of the other limited time dragons. This particular question, though, isn't. It shows in the in-game store exactly what two elements are needed, and exactly how long it takes to breed (which is what the question was asking). – Niro Oct 26 '12 at 11:08
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    @Fluttershy is correct, in that some dragons are in a different class, like I mention in the question. However, I don't agree that just because the game shows you a combination makes the question bad. The question I'm really interested in is "What is best combination for breeding dragon X". Even given the base elements of a dragon, it is basically impossible to determine this without a statistical analysis. Fast failed outcomes yield a better average number of attempts then slow failed outcomes. Despite this, I realize the questions get a lot of bad answers. – EBongo Oct 26 '12 at 13:27
  • I assert that is partially because the questions generate a lot of first time users, who will tend to give lower quality answers till they understand the Stack format. – EBongo Oct 26 '12 at 13:28
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    @EBongo: The highest upvoted answer on that question states 'There is no canonical "best" combination for most dragons.' - if true, then these questions are not constructive imho since the general combination is already displayed in-game. – Alok Oct 26 '12 at 21:53
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    "AMAGAD I USED BALLS AND STEEL AND IT WORKED" - There's a Duke Nukem dragon? – Rilgon Arcsinh Oct 27 '12 at 0:34
  • @Alok Like a lot of questions on the site, "best" is in the eye of the beholder, but a good answerer defends his thesis of why something is "best". Since a lot of folks are having a hard time seeing my perspective on these questions, I'm going to attempt to give what I consider a very good answer to one of them, perhaps more. I think that will do a better job of explaining my position, though folks may still not agree with it. – EBongo Oct 27 '12 at 3:18
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Edit:

tl:dr: I propose that "What is the best(fastest) way to breed Dragon X" is a good question, even though simply "How to I breed Dragon X" is sometimes not.

After thinking, reading some comments, some answers, and writing one of my own, I think there may be some confusion. As Fluttershy points out you can see in the market the elements needed to breed these dragons, so the question of "how do I breed" one is a little poor on the grounds it is obvious. However, I mentally translate "How do I breed Dragon X" to "What is the best (fastest) way to breed Dragon X". That is a different, non-obvious question. It is not provided on the wiki at all, and even if using the DragonVale Breeding Sandbox it involves some research and analysis. You can see in Kareen's answer about the Obsidian Dragon, and my answer about the Ghost Dragon, that even though the element combinations are obvious the fastest pairing is not - in that it is most certainly not just a simple pairing of the base elements as Fluttershy proposes.

Begin old answer

In a short tl:dr summary, I believe each DragonVale breeding question adds value to the site, and should be allowed.

I believe long before my time on the site, the issue of easy questions was broached on Meta. I agree with GraceNote's answer, that easy questions should be allowed as long as they do not reach the point of spam.

So, why do I feel DragonVale breeding questions are not spam? Firstly, like I mentioned in my response to Fluttershy's question, I believe casual/mobile games are a different beast with a slightly different set of rules. On any given day, Diablo gamers and Borderlands 2 gamers may be thinking thousands of different questions, and searching accordingly. For a casual, relatively single dimension game like DragonVale - when a new dragon drops a huge proportion of the playing population will suddenly want to know the answer to a single question - "how do I breed that dragon".

Secondly, and backing up the first point, look at the views. To me, views are a measure (though not the only measure) of question relevance. If thousands or tens of thousands of folks are viewing the question, that means they had the same question I did. I will also point out that on a mobile device, it is not easy to traverse a wiki, or worse yet a FAQ. The Arqade format is much easier to get to the answer quickly, and our Google juju makes us often the top or among the top hits on a search.

Finally, I'll just point out as agent86's blog mentioned, that DragonVale questions make up 2.4% of all site views in Arqade's 2nd year. It is the only casual and only iOS game in the mix, and it beat out several other big console titles such as MW3 and Battlefield 3. If you accept my assertion that views = relevance, then I believe this supports the case that "How to do I breed dragon X" questions should continue to be allowed, and in fact should be encouraged.

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    Allowed? Sure. Encouraged? That's a stretch. I'd say tolerated. We don't do the internet a solid by replicating, poorly, the exact same content found on a domain-specific wiki. Question and answer pairs that provide information found nowhere else, or provide a superior presentation of information found elsewhere, is what we should be encouraging. If we're just reposting stuff found in Wikis, and—worse—encouraging it, we're not much better than a content farm. – user3389 Oct 26 '12 at 4:15
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    Views is definitely not a measure of quality or relevance, or there won't be so many closed questions with large number of views. Neither is it a measure of quality - despite Google's best efforts, search rankings still do not reflect the quality of a site's content. The Stack Exchange format does poorly with lists (even finite lists, as it is in this case), and because there are so few players on this site, vote activity is low on these questions, making it difficult to distinguish between correct and wrong answers. – Private Pansy Oct 26 '12 at 6:59

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